Ground Standards

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Re: Ground Standards

Postby Johnny Guitar » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:09 pm

I would.


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Re: Ground Standards

Postby Ezeikial » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:10 pm

That's a very interesting question and I too am interested to hear other supporters opinions.

My initial thoughts are that I would like to see Oriel Park upgraded or re-developed without having to have the ground closed for a season.

But to try to answer your question in the way it was asked. I would not be happy to forgo success to get a proper stadium, but I would put up with the inconvenience of having to travel to home games in Monaghan or Newry and the increased risk of not winning the league,if that was the price that had to be paid
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Re: Ground Standards

Postby magarnagle » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:24 pm

Johnny Guitar wrote:I would.


So in 6/7 years time you'd be happy to be in the same position as Sligo are now? Or do you want something better, e.g. Something that can host group stage European games?

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Re: Ground Standards

Postby Ezeikial » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:54 pm

magarnagle wrote:
Johnny Guitar wrote:I would.


So in 6/7 years time you'd be happy to be in the same position as Sligo are now? Or do you want something better, e.g. Something that can host group stage European games?


That's a fairly loaded question Magarnagle - how about giving your opinion to the question raised by Martin Lawlor80?
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Re: Ground Standards

Postby Johnny Guitar » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:02 pm

magarnagle wrote:
Johnny Guitar wrote:I would.


So in 6/7 years time you'd be happy to be in the same position as Sligo are now? Or do you want something better, e.g. Something that can host group stage European games?


6/7 years ago we were in a worst position than sligo are now and like swings and roundabouts, apples and oranges we will be back in that position again hopefully not as bad as we were. BTW sligo are not where they are because of upgrading the showgies. They are there because of poor board level decisions and falling revenues.

Back to the point I don't think the town of dundalk could host group stage games. From memory category stadia that was allowed need a certain number of hotel rooms and other aspect that were out of our control. Also there is only one street of entry to op and that misses criteria.

A 12k stadium doesn't suit our needs. If we get to a group stage ever again I would have no problem with plaguing the games in Dublin. If we were to go that big I would prefer a greenfield site.

A venue like the showgies in sligo or terryland in Galway would be terrific and would be more than apt for our needs.

I don't want to have a go ar the yanks but for the relative cheapness of the rent of op (less than 300 pa) previous administrations have invested pillowcase.all with probably GM actually probably investing the most.
I know their business model is to spend on the team and maximise return on player sales and progression in Europe. My hope is when a new supporters club is set up that they can keeping pointing to them the need to chamge.
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Re: Ground Standards

Postby Ezeikial » Mon Apr 16, 2018 11:20 pm

Johnny Guitar wrote: My hope is when a new supporters club is set up that they can keeping pointing to them the need to chamge.


A supporters club is essential to the long term well-being of the club and as a means to effectively communicate with and influence the current owners
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Re: Ground Standards

Postby oldfogey » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:01 am

Johnny Guitar wrote:
magarnagle wrote:
Johnny Guitar wrote:I would.


So in 6/7 years time you'd be happy to be in the same position as Sligo are now? Or do you want something better, e.g. Something that can host group stage European games?


6/7 years ago we were in a worst position than sligo are now and like swings and roundabouts, apples and oranges we will be back in that position again hopefully not as bad as we were. BTW sligo are not where they are because of upgrading the showgies. They are there because of poor board level decisions and falling revenues.

Back to the point I don't think the town of dundalk could host group stage games. From memory category stadia that was allowed need a certain number of hotel rooms and other aspect that were out of our control. Also there is only one street of entry to op and that misses criteria.

A 12k stadium doesn't suit our needs. If we get to a group stage ever again I would have no problem with plaguing the games in Dublin. If we were to go that big I would prefer a greenfield site.

A venue like the showgies in sligo or terryland in Galway would be terrific and would be more than apt for our needs.

I don't want to have a go ar the yanks but for the relative cheapness of the rent of op (less than 300 pa) previous administrations have invested pillowcase.all with probably GM actually probably investing the most.
I know their business model is to spend on the team and maximise return on player sales and progression in Europe. My hope is when a new supporters club is set up that they can keeping pointing to them the need to chamge.


Rent is more like 5 figures pa, but still low. The owners "business model" is to make the club generate the costs of redevelopment itself so as to minimise their risk. What makes the like of Dundalk so attractive is the idea that an extra €300k on the playing side could generate UEFA prize money three or four times the total annual budget. Then they will build or redevelop. Comfort of the fans isn't really a factor nor indeed is the lost revenue from the floating fan.

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Re: Ground Standards

Postby El Paso » Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:30 am

These lads are here to make money and they're only in the door. Any of you who work for a company know how slow projects are to implement even after the green light is given.

You have to have a category 4 stadium for the Champions League play off or group stage matches in either competition: https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Do ... WNLOAD.pdf
https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Do ... WNLOAD.pdf

Dundalk had to pay quite a bit of money to enable Tallaght to be fudged as a Cat 4. Be realistic - no owner of Dundalk is building a stadium with those facilities unless they've won the euromillions (Note: I would build that for Dundalk if I won the Euromillions!!!). Only the County Council with the help of the FAI and government could do it. It's not going to happen. Not in the next decade at least.


Now an increase in the average attendance of 1,000 is about 400K - 500K in extra matchday ticket revenue a year, before you get someone to buy a programme or a pint or whatever. Yes they're here for Euro money primarily. But they still need a steady income stream, and that comes from bums on seats, merchandise, sponsorship and so on. There's a big difference between 2,000 showing up and 3,500.

Oriel cleaned up and made more comfortable for 4,000 seats and 1,000 standing for a pleasant matchday experience could well pay for itself very quickly. An average attendance of 4,000 a match should be very doable. Maybe I'm being optimistic but I think that's what you'll see happen - piecemeal improvements spread out over a couple of years.
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Re: Ground Standards

Postby mike » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:05 am

I think this is a fair post. Over the medium term and if things could be done in stages it would be great if Oriel could be improved for our domestic needs of 20+ games a year, even two covered terraces behind each goal with scope for installing seating at another time would be a fantastic addtion. Other options are to build what Pats have behind one goal, or what Limerick have behind their city end, both would be fine for our needs. I would immediately close down the current away end once a new area for away fans is in place. The point on attracting say 1k extra with better facilities is very interesting, and this could indeed be a right good increase in revenue.

We might still even get to use the ground for a few rounds in Europe, and should the need arise for play off or group stages in EL again, (hopefully we will) the likes of Tallaght has worked out fine in the past.

I think anything past these type of improvemets might be very ambitious.

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Re: Ground Standards

Postby ArFella » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:37 am

The different plans laid out above by different posters are great, but they are all long term plans that realistically aren't going to implemented in the first 2 years of the new owners taking over. Bear in mind that these owners while being positive about their vision for the club will want to see some tangible evidence that their investment in the club and plan for their ROI is going to work before they start pumping in money for new stands/stadium! If in 2/3 years time we haven't replicated the 2016 Europa run they may decide it's not worth the outlay and cut their losses, this is obviously a very pessimistic view, but also a definite possibility that the investors would have looked at (they'd be nothing short of incompetent if they didn't). Minor improvements (Repaving of the town end and draining the puddle) are all we should expect for the short term future and if we achieve relative success in Europe then major improvements and long term plans will follow.

For now (Maybe during the summer break), I would love if someone went through Oriel with a power washer, as it is filthy, and did a proper tidy up job to improve the look, but I still won't hold my breath. A supporters club would definitely help with communication of fans desires but we have to be reasonable, which some of our fans certainly aren't...
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Re: Ground Standards

Postby Wexford White » Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:49 am

Martin Lawlor80 wrote:I’d be interested to hear your opinions on the following. So we all want a new stadium or a redeveloped one. With the state of OP any redevelopment will take at least a season. We’d probably have to play away from home during this time which IMO would mean giving up on the league for a while. Do we really think we could win trophies playing away from home for so long? I reckon not.
So would you be happy to forgoe success to get a proper stadium?

I don't think that playing home games elsewhere will necessarily mean forfeiting the league. Many of our away games bring huge Dundalk support already.
I also don't believe that redevelopment would take that long and we wouldn't have to leave Oriel. What sort of stadium do we need anyway? I don't envisage an elaborate set up. Something basic would do - like Galway, Longford or Athlone. Redevelopment could be done piecemeal. There is plenty of room behind both goals for temporary stands.
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Re: Ground Standards

Postby El Paso » Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:20 am

Look at this aerial shot.

Surely in the existing footprint of Oriel Park you could do loads at relatively low cost?

In this order maybe?

1. Covered terrace length of Town End, corner flag to corner flag with room to the front for foot traffic to the Shed. Extend Shed to nearly meet Town End with gateway access to that end of YDC and new toilet facilities in that corner for people in Shed and Town End.

2. Demolish and level the existing away end. Build covered terrace on Carrick Road end, again corner flag to corner flag with enough room behind for vehicle access to YDC. Bookend this new terrace with a small media building between the new terrace and the YDC and toilet facilities on the entrance side. If the terrace is nearly the length of the pitch it only needs to be a few rows deep. It is already naturally set up for away fan segregation. Large jail cell for Rovers fans.

3. Demolish existing terracing and toilets on Town side of stand (which is huge!) and put in a new outdoor concourse with food, drink and toilet facilities. Imagine in a kind of L-Shape around the existing perimeter. A pleasant place to congregate before a match and at half time, especially if we ever get a summer back!

4. Lastly extend the main stand to the goal-line over the previously levelled away end. Bar, food, (betting?) and toilet facilities as part of the structure.

Image
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Re: Ground Standards

Postby niall_hearty2000 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:43 pm

How much would the temporary stand we got for the league decider v cork cost? Not sure we could use it for Europe but definitely use it for away fans behind the Carrick road end.
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Re: Ground Standards

Postby dundalkfc1903 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:55 pm

Cant help but feel the positioning of the YDC has been a major obstacle for redevelopment. Had it been built another 50 yards back, the pitch could have been flipped the old way.
Two stands and new dressing room facilities could have been gradually built at the current Carrick road and town ends. The old stand could then have housed the away fans for the foreseeable future, giving us one of the biggest away ends in the country. Immediate demolition of that stand would cost an absolute fortune.
The YDC would have enclosed the ground fully behind one of the goals and would have been an ideal place for advertisements.

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Re: Ground Standards

Postby Johnnybegood33 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:00 pm

There has been little improvement in 60 years , that’s the sad thing. I have witnessed all those years . That equals no progress. We were as well of in 1968 , playing serious European Teams in Oriel. In fact we are going backwards. And let no smart arse young fella tell me any different. I don’t expect any change anytime soon , bar the lick of paint , plus Brian Kerr making a laughing stock of Oriel on the national airwaves , every time there’s a live match. We always have the Bovril. Goodnight.


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